Edit : just to save some time and prevent Traumflug from further attempted word play : in this message when I refer to "32bits microcontrollers", you can simply replace that by "more powerful microcontrollers in general". Because yes Traumflug, a 1 GHz 8-bit microcontroller, is -not- less powerfull than a 1KHz 32-bit microcontroller, you are absolutely correct.
What is this I don't even ...
So are you saying a firmware designed for an 8-bit mcu, running on an 8-bit/16-20mhz mcu, will be as smooth in it's step generation and as precise in it's motion planning and execution, as a firmware designed for a 32-bit mcu, running on a 32-bit/120mhz mcu ?
I'm not even sure I understand what you are saying.
A shitton of work has gone into getting the Smoothie firmware to take advantage of the more powerful chip. Most of that work doesn't exist or would make sense on the current 8-bit boards/firmwares, and none of them can claim equivalent befenits ....
So your rebutal to me saying that 8-bit electronics running at 16Mhz are less powerful than 32-bit electronics running at 120Mhz, is to actually agree that they are slower, but that's ok because it's "just a bit" slower ?
There is a very very significant difference in the amount of computing power each solution is capable of, and the Smoothie firmware does take advantage of that difference to -in fact- make things smoother, more precise, and better. I'm sorry, that's a fact, and by saying the contrary you are just being factually wrong.
I am really sorry, but if your argument all along has been that 8-bit mcus and 32-bit mcus are still MCUs and therefore there is no difference in what each makes possible, because they both are just information processing units and what matters is what is being executed on them, you wasted my time, you are way too obtuse to be talked to, and I'm pretty much done with this conversation.
There are way too many reasonable persons to talk to to waste time with this ... well I guess untit next time you spread misinformation and I have to jump in again :( ...
My argumentations are absolutely not exhausted, I do think you are being either dishonest or wrong, and I actually think I can prove you are one of those.
I don't attack you personally ( you may well be a very nice person, that is very very wrong, which is why I specified I "feel" you are being dishonest, because I also "feel" you know to much about this to only be wrong ), I attack your arguments, which I think are dishonest ( or insanely mis-informed ).
But either you do not know what you are talking about, or you are being dishonest about this, yes.
What exactly did you try ?
Because I think he implied "try what has actually been implemented and worked very very hard one for several years on 32bits chips ( ie Smoothie or the few others )" ( correct me if I'm wrong ), and if that's what he was saying, and you tried them, and you think they work exactly the same, you didn't try very hard ...
Here you are isolating one problem that -can- be fixed on 8bit firmwares and ignoring many other things that -can- be made better on current 32bits systems, and can not be made better on current 8bits systems ( without sacrificing other things ). Which I feel is not an honest way of adressing the issue.
Actually, a faster MCU does not -only- make it simpler to do so, you are factually wrong here. If we had to implement every amelioration we made to the Smoothie firmware, every bug fix, ever special case, fine tuning, better math, all that, on an 8bit chip, it would have to generate steps at an insanely slow rate, and do very very short look-ahead. If you implement them on an 8bit system, you loose a lot. If you implement them on a 32bit system, you do not
So no, there are things that 32 bits microcontrollers do not -just- make simpler. They are made possible.
Just to give an idea. When I started coding Smoothie, it was based on a very similar ( grbl ) firmware as Marlin. Without many optimizations, I was able to push it to 450khz step generation on a 96Mhz 32bit chip. That's to be compared to the 40khz maximum step rate in Marlin ( and the steps are not very clean at that rate, it's using a hack ).
Now here's my point : nowadays, Smoothie's maximum step rate is 100khz, 4.5x times less than it was in the beginning. Where has all of this processing power gone ??? It has gone to making Smoothie " Smoother [...] More precise [...] Better ", that's where it's gone.
And just to do some stupid math, imagining we ported Smoothie to an 8-bit mcu ( well let's say we changed Marlin to do things more like Smoothie ), seeing we had a 4.5 times decrease in max step rate by implementing all those ameliorations, we can estimate Marlin's max step rate would fall by something similar, so 40khz/4.5, it'd have to run at something like 9khz max step rate to reap the benefits.
Smoothie is NOT "hey I just ported marlin to 32bits then went have a beer and never worked on it again", which you seem to think it is.
So no, you can't do -everything- on an 8bit chips, it is NOT just a matter of being great at coding, or you'd be able to run minecraft on C64, just by using your coder magic powers.
And that's exactly the reason why high-end CNC machinery today still uses 3Mhz 8-bit MCUs of course ...
And a C64 also worked "just fine" for personal computing too. Tell that to the facebook kids ... If your entire argument is that what was enough in the past, is enough today, we just have different "enough"s, and I really have nothing to say to you.
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Traumflug
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arthurwolfQuote
Traumflug
Smoother than what? More precise that what? Better than what? And again, all these are properties of firmware, open to any board.
It was implied : "than 8-bit boards running the current 8-bit firmwares".
In this case, all of these claims are wrong.
What is this I don't even ...
So are you saying a firmware designed for an 8-bit mcu, running on an 8-bit/16-20mhz mcu, will be as smooth in it's step generation and as precise in it's motion planning and execution, as a firmware designed for a 32-bit mcu, running on a 32-bit/120mhz mcu ?
I'm not even sure I understand what you are saying.
A shitton of work has gone into getting the Smoothie firmware to take advantage of the more powerful chip. Most of that work doesn't exist or would make sense on the current 8-bit boards/firmwares, and none of them can claim equivalent befenits ....
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Traumflug
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arthurwolf
I absolutely do not see how those are open to any board.
I'm very sorry for your shortsightedness. CPUs are digital units and all of the produce the exact same results, no matter how many bits in parallel they process. They just vary in speed. Just like 32-bit desktop CPUs produce the exactly same result as 64-bit counterparts, just a bit slower.
So your rebutal to me saying that 8-bit electronics running at 16Mhz are less powerful than 32-bit electronics running at 120Mhz, is to actually agree that they are slower, but that's ok because it's "just a bit" slower ?
There is a very very significant difference in the amount of computing power each solution is capable of, and the Smoothie firmware does take advantage of that difference to -in fact- make things smoother, more precise, and better. I'm sorry, that's a fact, and by saying the contrary you are just being factually wrong.
I am really sorry, but if your argument all along has been that 8-bit mcus and 32-bit mcus are still MCUs and therefore there is no difference in what each makes possible, because they both are just information processing units and what matters is what is being executed on them, you wasted my time, you are way too obtuse to be talked to, and I'm pretty much done with this conversation.
There are way too many reasonable persons to talk to to waste time with this ... well I guess untit next time you spread misinformation and I have to jump in again :( ...
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Traumflug
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arthurwolf
I can't help but feel you are being dishonest in some way.
Each time your argumentations are exhausted you start attacking me personally and accuse me to lie. Thank you for that, it just confirms my logical descriptions are right.
My argumentations are absolutely not exhausted, I do think you are being either dishonest or wrong, and I actually think I can prove you are one of those.
I don't attack you personally ( you may well be a very nice person, that is very very wrong, which is why I specified I "feel" you are being dishonest, because I also "feel" you know to much about this to only be wrong ), I attack your arguments, which I think are dishonest ( or insanely mis-informed ).
But either you do not know what you are talking about, or you are being dishonest about this, yes.
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Traumflug
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JustAnotherOne
@Traumflug: You should really try the 32 bits
Guess what: I did already. And it works exactly the same way as on an 8-bit counterpart.
What exactly did you try ?
Because I think he implied "try what has actually been implemented and worked very very hard one for several years on 32bits chips ( ie Smoothie or the few others )" ( correct me if I'm wrong ), and if that's what he was saying, and you tried them, and you think they work exactly the same, you didn't try very hard ...
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Traumflug
It's all a matter of a proper firmware. If Marlin and Repetier declare shaky movements and step losses as state of the art and people cheer on that, I can't help. This is a solvable problem. Not solvable by faster CPUs, but solvable with more carefully written firmwares. A fast CPU just makes it a bit simpler to do so.
Here you are isolating one problem that -can- be fixed on 8bit firmwares and ignoring many other things that -can- be made better on current 32bits systems, and can not be made better on current 8bits systems ( without sacrificing other things ). Which I feel is not an honest way of adressing the issue.
Actually, a faster MCU does not -only- make it simpler to do so, you are factually wrong here. If we had to implement every amelioration we made to the Smoothie firmware, every bug fix, ever special case, fine tuning, better math, all that, on an 8bit chip, it would have to generate steps at an insanely slow rate, and do very very short look-ahead. If you implement them on an 8bit system, you loose a lot. If you implement them on a 32bit system, you do not
So no, there are things that 32 bits microcontrollers do not -just- make simpler. They are made possible.
Just to give an idea. When I started coding Smoothie, it was based on a very similar ( grbl ) firmware as Marlin. Without many optimizations, I was able to push it to 450khz step generation on a 96Mhz 32bit chip. That's to be compared to the 40khz maximum step rate in Marlin ( and the steps are not very clean at that rate, it's using a hack ).
Now here's my point : nowadays, Smoothie's maximum step rate is 100khz, 4.5x times less than it was in the beginning. Where has all of this processing power gone ??? It has gone to making Smoothie " Smoother [...] More precise [...] Better ", that's where it's gone.
And just to do some stupid math, imagining we ported Smoothie to an 8-bit mcu ( well let's say we changed Marlin to do things more like Smoothie ), seeing we had a 4.5 times decrease in max step rate by implementing all those ameliorations, we can estimate Marlin's max step rate would fall by something similar, so 40khz/4.5, it'd have to run at something like 9khz max step rate to reap the benefits.
Smoothie is NOT "hey I just ported marlin to 32bits then went have a beer and never worked on it again", which you seem to think it is.
So no, you can't do -everything- on an 8bit chips, it is NOT just a matter of being great at coding, or you'd be able to run minecraft on C64, just by using your coder magic powers.
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Traumflug
Perhaps some of you remember earlier high-end CNC machinery. Many of them had a 3 MHz 8-bit CPU and they worked just fine.
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And that's exactly the reason why high-end CNC machinery today still uses 3Mhz 8-bit MCUs of course ...
And a C64 also worked "just fine" for personal computing too. Tell that to the facebook kids ... If your entire argument is that what was enough in the past, is enough today, we just have different "enough"s, and I really have nothing to say to you.